Glavred web site, Kyiv, Ukraine, April 23, 2004
BBC Monitoring Service, UK, in English, Monday, Apr 26, 2004

The following is the text of the interview Volkov gave to Yuliya Lymar, published on Glavred web site on 23 April. Subheadings have been inserted editorially:

Oleksandr Volkov is like the star on a marshal's epaulette: if it does not shine, it means that the commander is no longer in business. In this context the break in relations between [President] Leonid Kuchma and Oleksandr Volkov - a person who partly created the president - is a significant one.

Actually, there was no public scandal. Mr Volkov still refers to Mr Kuchma warmly and respectfully. As a person who knows the price of friendship with the ruler, Volkov knows how to wait. Sooner or later, when it is possible to approach Leonid Kuchma as simply as one can now approach [former President] Leonid Kravchuk, who will be left by the side of the president? Few people will probably be surprised to see the stately figure of Volkov behind the fragile Kuchma. After all, when you are happy, you have lots of friends, but unhappiness is always lonely.

[Lymar] Mr Volkov, you recently said that you did not vote for the amendments to the constitution, because you had been "told to frig off". A small detail: people are saying that in fact the president had blocked the political reform and that was why key people like you did not vote at his personal request. Is that the case?

[Volkov] No, that's not true. Mr Kuchma has long had the idea of political reform. He started speaking about it seriously in 1999 and implementing it in 2000. Then, you recall, there was a referendum that I was entrusted to hold. It was conducted brilliantly, and in four days we collected over 5m signatures in support of it. The team there worked really hard and conscientiously.

Reason for not voting for political reform

But it was not the president who blocked the political reform. Mr Kuchma truly wanted it to pass with all his heart, and I agreed with him and told him that I would vote for political reform.

[Lymar] And then you didn't.

[Volkov] I intended to vote for the reform, whose basic tenet was a redistribution of power that Mr Kuchma was talking about between the president, parliament and Cabinet of Ministers. His (Kuchma's - Ed.) dream was to see a Cabinet of Ministers accountable to parliament and the people, i.e. a coalition government. And political reform had to be enacted precisely within that framework. But it turned out that the people who were instructed to flesh out political reform with meaning added anything they wanted to it. And then the reform received a holy fool's content.

But even in that case, I and the majority of single seat constituency deputies said that we would vote for the political reform, but article by article. If you remember, there was even a resolution tabled by the head of the Socialist Party, [Oleksandr] Moroz, on voting article by article. But then Mr Kuchma's entourage found very weighty arguments for Mr Moroz... [ellipsis as published]

[Lymar] Which ones?

[Volkov] Let him tell you himself.

[Lymar] Leonid Kuchma's entourage - is that [presidential administration chief] Viktor Medvedchuk?

[Volkov] Well, Viktor Medvedchuk is also part of Mr Kuchma's entourage.

[Lymar] Are you part of that entourage?

[Volkov] It's not I who defines the entourage, it's the president.

[Lymar] In the 1999 elections you were the president's right hand man, i.e. as close as could be. Are you the same man now?

[Volkov] I think that the president is now reviewing his "right hand". You remember that at one point it was Dima [Dmytro] Tabachnyk, for a long time it was me, then [Volodymyr] Lytvyn and now it's Medvedchuk. He is not the last on the list.

Medvedchuk should go

[Lymar] If there were a secret vote in parliament to dismiss Viktor Medvedchuk, would you vote "for"?

[Volkov] I don't give a damn. I'd vote "for" both in secret and in public.

[Lymar] What is your personal relationship with Medvedchuk? (thinks) Good, bad, tolerable?

[Volkov] He's a mystery to me. The last time we parted, some months ago, we had a very friendly embrace, took our leave and said "see you tomorrow". And that "tomorrow" has not come for five months. First I phoned and tried to meet with him on this or that question, but the answer I got was later, tomorrow. And then I understood that is was a normal game, that he didn't want to meet me. And there is a good saying: "Love cannot be forced". And I don't intend to.

[Lymar] In your opinion, will Viktor Medvedchuk stay with the president to the very end of the elections, or will there be a reshuffle?

[Volkov] I think that the current situation is ruinous for both of them. Medvedchuk's negative rating has reached a figure that can no longer be considered normal either for the people of Ukraine or for the president himself. And the best option for the president himself is to find some other job for Mr Medvedchuk at such a politically charged time as the presidential elections. He needs to kind of retreat into the shade. Because it does the president no good that the saying among the people is that it is not he who is running the state, but Medvedchuk. Moreover, he is doing it behind his (the president's - Ed.) back.

One can do anything, one can give advice, one can hint to the president, but one cannot take decisions in his place. But that is what we have noticed on more than one occasion. It's a good thing that Mr Kuchma's character is such that he can thump the table and very quickly put everything in its place. The quicker everything is put in its place now, the greater will be the president's honour and praise.

[Lymar] How do you now relate to attempts nevertheless to enact political reform on the basis of other bills even before the presidential elections?

[Volkov] What can I say... [ellipsis as published] once you have already exposed yourself as impotent on that level, let's forget the reform, all the more so, because Mr Kuchma himself has abandoned the idea. You will see: when they were presenting [Prime Minister Viktor] Yanukovych as the single candidate [from the majority] and he had the parting words, question number one was political reform before the presidential elections. And already two days later in Dnipropetrovsk the president, evidently having thought carefully, abandoned the theme.

He (Leonid Kuchma - Ed.) said that the most important task was to win the election. And if the people who vote for you as the single candidate will then vote for you as president, it may be that they will gladly also vote for political reform. But I don't know why Yanukovych will need political reform after the election.

The same goes for [centre-right opposition leader Viktor] Yushchenko. A year ago I said: "Lads, the basic players have already been defined: there is Yushchenko, Yanukovych, [Communist Party leader Petro] Symonenko and Moroz... [ellipsis as published]" Now why would they want reduced powers? You can say anything, but you shouldn't be sly: they all want to receive the same powers that Mr Kuchma has today.

[Lymar] Are you sure that Mr Kuchma will not be on the list of basic contenders at these presidential elections?

[Volkov] He is a very wise and a very, very clever person. I have worked with him for a very long time and I know his non-standard thinking. Sometimes he has surprised even me with his decisions. Therefore I think that he will be clever enough not to get embroiled in a perfectly hopeless business. He has been and is an indisputable authority over all these 10 years. People can say whatever they like, but during the period of his rule Ukraine has gained a great deal.

Yes, there are mistakes, there are some shortcomings, but only someone who does nothing does not make mistakes. And if we take 1994 and 2000, Ukraine has started living better. Look at the street - I sometimes can't get through to work. There's nothing but Mercedes and Opel cars. And they're not bought out of poverty! Yes, there certainly are poor people, but they also have them in America.

Modest life style

[Lymar] And from where do you leave to get to work?

[Volkov] From my country house in Osokorky [suburb of Kiev]. I have a little cottage there in the village. I've been living there for 15 years now, and it's from there that I leave for work.

[Lymar] And is it true that your little cottage has a garage holding several expensive cars?

[Volkov] What rubbish! I've never had cars, and you'd do better to put that question not to me but to the traffic police directorate. Ask them: "Esteemed gentlemen from the traffic police, how many cars are registered as belonging to Oleksandr Volkov?" And let them say "zero point zero". There was recently a story written that a famous footballer had been in a car crash in a Hammer, and the car belonged to people's deputy Volkov.

Well, Magnolia TV reported it! They work with the police several hours every day. Well, pick up the receiver and call, find out if the Hammer really belongs to Volkov. No, there was no such thing, is not and will not be. They enjoy getting Volkov into a mess... [ellipsis as published] Frankly speaking, I also enjoy it.

Medvedchuk's problems

[Lymar] Coming back to the elections, to what extent, in your opinion, are most of the people supporting Mr Yanukovych as a presidential candidate sincere in their intentions? First and foremost it is a question of Medvedchuk, [Kuchma's son-in-law, tycoon Viktor] Pinchuk and some of the Donetsk people.

[Volkov] People who are really linked to Mr Yanukovych, friendly with him, will support him wholeheartedly. As far as the USDP [United Social Democratic Party, headed by Medvedchuk] is concerned, there have quite recently been rumours circulating, and there were even intentions to have their leader in the presidential race. And the fact that the USDP is now supporting Yanukovych is not out of love, but out of desperation. They have no other way out, nowhere to go. Because the election of Yushchenko for the social democrats would be even more calamitous than that of Yanukovych.

[Lymar] Why? After all, it all comes down to trusting the guarantees that either Yushchenko or Yanukovych can give. Who would you rather believe?

[Volkov] You are making me say either Yushchenko or Yanukovych. To be able to express it to you more gently... [ellipsis as published] The point is that there is a leader, and there is also an entourage around that leader that sometimes defines his policy and views, including political and economic. Well, the social democrats have no love for the entourage of either of them. And so I think that there will be problems. Not for Medvedchuk but for the business structures that now surround him and actively help him.

[Lymar] Looking at the events in Mukacheve [disputed mayoral election], can we rule out the use of force to keep power? Is that possible?

[Volkov] No, I am absolutely sure not. And concerning the events in Mukacheve, I can tell you that only one side was the loser there - the authorities. Mukacheve made it possible via the media to bring everything to the attention of European observers and the parliament hall and to give the opposition occasion to get PR and access to all the media. And once again to say that the authorities had acted improperly. It was not worth doing that.

And if Mr Kuchma had known the full scenario of that bedlam, he would not have allowed it. And so, I see only one thing: the steps of the authorities today are not consistent and not logical.

[Lymar] Is it death throes?

[Volkov] Let's not yet call it death throes, let's call it an inconsistent adoption of decisions in such apparently simple situations.

Changes in parliamentary majority

[Lymar] Mr Volkov, what is happening now in the parliamentary majority? How do you evaluate the creation of the new faction?

[Volkov] A year ago I said that the closer the presidential elections come, the more deputies will seek their place in the new sun. This was especially clearly seen after the adoption of the law on elections on a proportional basis, where the deputies from single seat constituencies were simply driven into a corner. People did not take them into consideration. Nobody talked with them. They were simply thrown out of the political process without any explanation or talk about the future.

What is now to happen to those deputies that do not belong to any party? Must they get down on their knees and beg "Put me on your list"? Well, OK, there are some deputies who have a penny or two behind them and can pay for a place on a list. But if someone only has his work and constituency, what is he to do in such a situation? After all, they did indeed represent the people and specific voters in parliament, and they were dealt with like swine. What could they do? All of this, evidently, built up and the deputies as a protest took the decision to set up their group which single seat MPs entered. A second action will be logical: the exit of that group from the majority.

[Lymar] Do you rule out the possibility that Yushchenko's faction will increase in the near future?

[Volkov] If we are speaking about this group of centrists, I would not do it in their place. I would leave the majority and thereby proclaim myself at the top of my voice. Second, I would make the authorities and the others take notice. "The centre" is already a defined force and it can no longer be put into a doggy-style pose and told how to vote. Now they have to be persuaded, explained to... [ellipsis as published]

[Lymar] Do you have anything to do with the creation of the new faction?

[Volkov] No, honestly.

[Lymar] At one time you said that you lent money to Ihor Bakay for life. What is your relationship with Mr Bakay now?

[Volkov] He is now working in the Directorate for State Affairs. He's the head of it... [ellipsis as published]

[Lymar] Did he pay back the debt?

[Volkov] Well, as always, Mr Bakay is a unique person: he's always there when things are bad for him, but when things start going just a little bit well for him, you can't get through to him on the phone. I even say as a joke: "When will things get bad enough for him so that we can have a talk?"

I don't know what's happening with him now. To my very great regret, he does not respond to phone calls, refuses to meet and lives a life understood by him alone.

[Lymar] Is it true that you are now interested in land near Kiev?

[Volkov] I have had a country home there since 1986, almost 15 years now.

[Lymar] And you don't want to buy up big pieces, hectares of land in Boryspil District?

[Volkov] Nope. You know that according to Ukrainian law it is not permitted to buy up big pieces of land. You can do it differently: take it to organize private farming. But, most unfortunately, according to the law, a deputy does not have the right to engage in any business apart from his work.

[Lymar] You have now lost influence and are losing business. Where and who are you now?

[Volkov] I'm here. What I was is what I still am - Volkov, Oleksandr Mykhaylovych... [ellipsis as published]